Rethinking Accessibility in Event Planning
Featuring Earla Jones, Director of Conference Services and Operations at the American Library Association
Earla Jones joined the American Library Association as the Director of Conference Services and Operations in January 2019. With more than twenty years of experience as a planning professional, producing meetings, conventions, and events, Jones specializes in experiential design and program development. Earla is a member of PCMA and ASAE and currently serves as Chair of ASAE Meetings & Expositions Professionals Advisory Council. She was selected as one of Northstar Meetings Group’s Meetings Industry Influencers for 2023.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
The challenges of gauging employee satisfaction in a rapidly growing company with global offices
Strategies for finding a balance between global events and meetings, taking into consideration time zones and cultural differences
The importance of diversity, equity, and inclusion in creating a supportive and inclusive work environment.
The value of networking and connecting with industry organizations like MPI and PCMA for gaining insights and different perspectives on managing events
An understanding of the role of internal communications in keeping employees connected and engaged, particularly during challenging times like the pandemic
In this episode…
In the latest episode of the “Solution Seekers” podcast, Paige Buck had the pleasure of speaking with Earla Jones, Director of Conference Services and Operations at the American Library Association.
In a world where event planning is rapidly evolving, understanding the intricacies of creating memorable and inclusive experiences is more crucial than ever. With over two decades of experience, Earla has a unique perspective on the importance of experiential design and accessibility in event planning. But how does one seamlessly integrate these elements to elevate the standard of events?
Earla Jones brings a wealth of knowledge and insight to the table. Her journey from a psychology major to a renowned event planner showcases the diverse paths leading to success in this industry. She emphasizes the significance of experiential design in events, focusing on creating engagements that resonate with all five senses to leave a lasting impact. Earla also highlights the vital role of accessibility in event planning, discussing how inclusive practices can transform the appeal and reach of an event. Her approach is about meeting standards and innovatively enhancing the participant experience. Through her expertise, Earla illustrates that successful event planning is as much about understanding people as it is about logistics and creativity.
DOWNLOAD THE TOP TAKEAWAYS FROM THIS PODCAST EPISODE FOR FREE
Resources Mentioned in this episode
“Feedback is Power: How Interactive Sales Materials Transform Enterprise Sales Processes” with Justin Dorfman of AssetMule
“The Evolution of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion in the Corporate World” with Sophia Piliouras of MCCA
“Creating a Win-Win Situation: How to Provide Value to Sponsors and Organizations” with Meg Fasy of fazeFWD.
Sponsor for this episode…
This episode is brought to you by Kennedy Events.
Kennedy Events creates stress-free conferences and events, providing expert management and design for all your corporate event needs—from in-person to hybrid and virtual events.
To learn more about our services, visit our website at www.kennedyevents.com and schedule a consultation today to find out how we can guide you in making your event successful.
Transcript
Rethinking Accessibility in Event Planning with Earla Jones
Paige Buck [00:00:04]:
Welcome to the Solution Seekers podcast. I'm your host, Paige Buck. Recent guests have included Justin Dorfman of AssetMule, Sophia Piliouras of MCCA, and Meg Fazy of FazeFWD. And today, I am excited to be talking with Earla Jones. Earla joined the American Library Association in January 2019 as the Director of Conference Services and Operations.
Paige Buck [00:00:44]:
With more than 20 years of experience as a planning professional producing meetings, conventions, and events. Jones specializes in experiential design and program development. Earla is a member of PCMA and ASAE and currently serves as Chair of ASAE Meetings and Expositions Professionals Advisory Council. She was also selected as one of North Star meeting group's meeting industry influencers for 2023. Talk about tongue-tied. That was a mouthful.
Today's episode is brought to you by Kennedy Events. Kennedy Events creates stress-free conferences and events providing expert management and design for all your corporate event needs, from in-person to hybrid and virtual. You can learn more about us at kennedyevents.com.
Hello, Earla. Thanks for being with me today.
Earla Jones [00:01:31]:
Hi, Paige. This is great. I'm glad to be here.
Paige Buck [00:01:34]:
Yeah. I'm really delighted to meet you and get to know you, and I would love to hear, because I feel like everybody's path into this career is different, how did you get started in events?
Earla Jones [00:01:46]:
Oh, wow. So years and years ago, I was a psychology major, actually, at Penn State, graduated, and I just knew I was going to go into higher education counseling. I graduated, started my Master's work, and I took a temp job working as a meetings assistant. Fell in love with it. I was like, oh, this is fun, and started working on some meetings and events. And after six, eight months, I said, you know what, this is what I want to do full time. So I was hired as a meeting planner and stopped going to, dropped out of grad school, basically, and kept going, working. It was for government meetings out of the DC area.
Earla Jones [00:02:39]:
And like I said, I loved it. A couple of years later, I decided to go back for my Master's and moved to Chicago, enrolled in Roosevelt, got my Master's degree, and it's just been a great ride ever since.
Paige Buck [00:02:55]:
How does your Master's degree support the career that you thought so?
Earla Jones [00:03:03]:
My Master's is in Hospitality and Tourism Management with a specialization in Meetings and Expositions. And the curriculum was very hospitality focused. A lot of the back-of-the-house things with hotels and restaurants, tourism as a whole. But what it really did for me was I fell in love with the experience component of meetings and expositions and understanding that to make something memorable and to really get that buying power is to create experiences. So something that starts off as an idea and then turns into a concrete event, it really changed my way of thinking. Required reading was “The Experience Economy,” and I use that to this day as, like, a guidebook on okay, if I want to think differently about something, what's the best way to go about it?
Paige Buck [00:03:58]:
Oh, I like that. That's a really good framework. I feel like experience and experiential design are buzzwords, that a lot of people don't even pause and think about what they actually mean and how they get applied to this work. I often think about when we're invited to think about actually engaging all five senses, and then you're like, yeah, but I'm in a windowless convention center. The five senses are my skin is dry, my eyes are dry,
Earla Jones [00:04:33]:
Or I'm cold, can we adjust the air? Or I'm hungry.
Paige Buck [00:04:37]:
Concrete under my feet is hard.
Earla Jones [00:04:40]:
Yes. And when we plan for events you think about, there's obviously all the pre-planning that goes into it, but it's the purchase. Right? How do you put a price tag on that experience? How do you quantify value so that people will buy it? So the people will come. I want to go because of X. Yes. Learning, networking, all of that.
Earla Jones [00:05:02]:
But what's the feel, right? What's that feel good that people have?
Paige Buck [00:05:07]:
Yeah. Well, before we got started, you were telling me about what I thought was a really wonderful and amusing example of a fun event or a memorable event, which was Car Wash Industry Expo. Can you share a little bit about what and why that's so memorable to you? Because I love it. It speaks to the experiential. For sure.
Earla Jones [00:05:28]:
Yes, for sure. So I worked at Smith Buckland, and my main client was International Car Wash Association. And they had an event called Car Care World Expo. And you're walking into this and my first time on the trade show floor, and I'm just amazed. You see all the pieces that make a car wash run, from the convenient side to the types of soaps to water pressure to the ecological piece. It was really cool. And some of them would have things to make your car dirty, and then you could see how the brushes would clean it. And I'm a 20 something right? Walking through it was really cool. They say there's an association for everything, and it truly is. So that was a real eye-opening experience. And it goes to show that as a meeting professional, you can be an expert in your field and plan for anyone. It doesn't mean that you have to be an expert in the group that you're planning for. Because I knew nothing about car washes other than I like to get my car washed, but it was just an eye-opening experience.
Paige Buck [00:06:42]:
Yeah. I also love you could very easily be like, I'm sorry, I'm going to be planning events for what? This does not get me out of bed in the morning, but then you're like, oh, brushes spinning on the floor. That kind of does get me excited. Or the logistical challenges of, we have to load in vehicles.
Earla Jones [00:07:02]:
Yes. Or load in sand because that's going to be a feature for one of the booths, or the water, or making sure that when the cars come in, there's no gas in the tank.
Paige Buck [00:07:17]:
Oh, yes! Or like, I'm going to need you to go drive that around for a while because I've absolutely had vehicles show up from dealerships to be showcased at events, and they didn't get the memo.
Earla Jones [00:07:30]:
Huge liability there.
Paige Buck [00:07:32]:
Yeah. Even under a tent, like, you are not driving that in here. That's not happening. And then the things you learn on the job, right?
Earla Jones [00:07:41]:
That definitely was not covered in my curriculum.
Paige Buck [00:07:45]:
Hopefully it's not personally siphoning off that gas. It's delegating. Like, go solve that problem for me. Thank you. I love it. You know, before we got started also, you were stressing, like, I am not a librarian! I am a conference director for the American Library Association. But we both love books, and it sounds like to me, it sounds like a dream job.
Paige Buck [00:08:09]:
How did you come to work at the ALA and what do you love about what you get to do there?
Earla Jones [00:08:15]:
Yeah, big reader here, so book lover, for sure. And I was working for another association in DC. The opportunity came available in Chicago, which is actually my hometown. So it was a great opportunity for me to sort of get back home, be with my family. You know, the opportunity came up and I said, you know what, this will be a challenge. It definitely was a larger event than I had done in the past. The annual conference pre-pandemic numbers were in the 20,000 plus people, and that's a small US city as a citywide, so definitely was a challenge. And I met the team, met with the other potential colleagues, and it's like, okay. We're going to take this leap of faith and see what happens.
Paige Buck [00:09:17]:
That's amazing. That's amazing. So I read that you came in with one big anchor event in front of you and then pretty quickly that was scrapped, and you invented something completely new. How did that come about?
Earla Jones [00:09:30]:
Yes. So my department has two big events a year, the January and the June. When I came in, there was a January event that had been around for, at that time, 106 years. And there was change management, an organizational shift to reimagine that space, and that was my charge. So working with the team, the consultants, internal constituents to make that happen, and it was definitely a journey. Change is not easy, regardless of what organization it is. And so it was just a unique opportunity, for sure.
Paige Buck [00:10:19]:
You said change management and change isn't easy. And I imagine there are some folks who were really happy to see that old event go and then some people who were very attached to it. Was it your responsibility to help make that case or woo them with the new and improved anchor event or annual event?
Earla Jones [00:10:42]:
No, it's definitely been collaborative. So we have a very strong conference committee that we work with. Like I said, we had third-party consultants involved. We had task forces and focus groups and town hall meetings and lots of different opportunities to build that buy-in. And it was instituted as a pilot because it's something that's new. And so being still in the pilot stage, it gives an opportunity to continuously reshape, tweak, add things, remove things. So it's definitely, as I've said before, definitely takes a lot of courage for an organization, especially an association, to rethink, right? That's huge. We get so many times, we get used to doing the same thing over and over again just because and taking a time to step back, really rethink and say, is this the best model? How can we change it? What can we do to improve? Should we sunset or should we revitalize? And it's not always the easiest decision, but it's definitely the most courageous.
Paige Buck [00:12:16]:
It does take courage. It's interesting. It's like you could be in an organization where everybody's feeling bored, stale, burned out by the thing they've always done and that feeling isn't good, but it's still a lot less effort than making the change happen to something new and vibrant you could be excited about. Being a part of that process, which it sounds like is also ongoing. I imagine you must have some observations or takeaways on what the movement or the effort takes. What are some observations you have about, I guess, change management broadly or reinventing and what it takes to be successful at that.
Earla Jones [00:13:03]:
Yeah. So change management, for sure, communication and collaboration, right? You want to as much as possible get input but understand that you still have to keep the momentum. Because even with the annual conference, we plan for months, but at some point, planning has to stop and you have to implement. You can plan and plan forever, but the implementation. What's the saying, so many cooks in the kitchen. Sometimes that's a bad thing and sometimes that's a good thing.
Because everyone has their role to make in the execution, in the production of it, whether it be from messaging, like I said, buy-in, to building support, to marketing. Being in a collaborative environment is really the only way to make something like that happen.
Paige Buck [00:14:13]:
That's a really good, I like that observation. You have in your current role and in prior roles, a real orientation and long experience in associations in particular. What do you think are some unique challenges that associations face besides perhaps always doing the thing you've always done, but to making events and structuring and implementing the ideas that come into events successful for associations?
Earla Jones [00:14:47]:
So for association events. They're optional. The membership can opt to attend or not to attend, depending on time, resources, budget. Whereas corporate events tend to, you have to go. If the Director of Marketing of the corporation says, I need all the marketing staff here, then they all have to go. They all have to attend. Associations, it's a little bit different challenge. And with all the benefits of technology, there's also a lot of competition.
There was a period of time when the way to get your continuing education or your professional development was to go to a conference. To go register, pack your bags, get on a plane, spend three to four days, get your learning, get your credits, and then you come home. There's so many options now. There are a lot of corporate entities that are now in the association space that can generate, with a much different budget than associations have to produce events, that are very specific to whatever the industry is. Also virtual, virtual things that are sometimes free. Virtual learning opportunities that people can have. So that's always a continuing challenge for associations: how to stay competitive, how to support your members, how to stay relevant, and also keep the association's mission moving forward.
Paige Buck [00:16:32]:
Yeah. So that competition with outside players who can offer something either more convenient or at a different price point. Yeah. I think that's a really good challenge that you noted. How do associations and how are you finding ways to overcome that and create something different that hooks the budget, the resource, and the time of the people. To make them say, I have to go to that instead of I'll just do that on Zoom in between meetings.
Earla Jones [00:17:04]:
Yeah, that for sure, is the challenge. Building that FOMO, that fear of missing out. Like, if you don't attend this, you're missing out on these things, where there's definitely a space for digital learning. Absolutely. That in-person experience is what we want to sell, because we want people to connect. We want people to be able to meet together and build those relationships.
Earla Jones [00:17:37]:
I'm sorry, that's my dog.
Paige Buck [00:17:40]:
Quite all right. Don't worry about it. Dogs are welcome.
Earla Jones [00:17:45]:
And build those memories and experiences.
Paige Buck [00:17:52]:
Okay. But see, this gives us new opportunities to talk because now I see your Wonder Woman icon on your chair. Okay, but I'll bring you back to that. Now I want to talk about your dog, and I want to talk about Wonder Woman. But you were talking about that FOMO and hooking people's attention to feel like they have to go to that thing, right?
Earla Jones [00:18:13]:
Have to go to it to get like, this is the place to be for this education. This is the place to be to get those connections. And it really is about content. Education, learning, networking, for sure is key because there are people who attend for different reasons that they want to– maybe they're looking for a new role or they just want to enhance their own skill set, their own knowledge base. But that's what associations traditionally have been for, right? To help people to build in their career, whether it's a trade association or professional association. But that career development. That professional development.
And we've had a unique opportunity in these last during the pandemic, of course, but even leading up to it within the meetings and events industry to really think about new ways because there's like this perpetual fight for the same dollars. Whether it be from our exhibitors that help support the event, to content leaders that can present at multiple events. How do we make our offerings that place to be.
Paige Buck [00:19:36]:
Okay, so being a little bit of a library and maybe a librarian nerd myself, I think of librarians as privy to a very progressive community space where they see the needs of their community, like in person, every day. Walking in with a question, walking in with a passion for a subject, just wanting to do their homework in a corner, whatever it might be. And so I imagine that gives the association a pretty progressive, and I say that word like writ large, not necessarily politically, perspective on our world and our changing times. And I mentioned that because the way we got connected was because my colleague Marianne attended an ASAE event where you were giving a presentation on accessibility. And it's something that you're leading in at the ALA. Can you share a little bit about what you're doing and then what you think, you know, from your framework, what presenters can do, how you can set everybody up in your organization for success when it comes to being a super accessible event.
Earla Jones [00:20:56]:
Yeah. So accessibility services are a priority for ALA meetings and events. I specify meetings too, because we are a very governance-heavy association. And so there's a lot of governance committee meetings that take place and those we also incorporate accessibility services. From things like captioning of sessions to providing scooters on site that people can rent and use to navigate the building, to making sure accessible transportation, having buses, but also an accessible selection of buses. Presentations. A lot of people don't think about colors and how you have to have the right color transparency for readers, for the computer, but also for logos to make sure that there's enough differentiation between your light and dark colors so people can read. Adequate signage with large enough font. The words that are used in presentations, being careful of sensitive language, acknowledging people's pronouns, respecting pronunciations, taking the time to practice. If somebody has a difficult first or last name, taking the time to perfect that before you present.
Oh my gosh, there's such a long list. There's lots of things that you can do. And being mindful of it, I think that's the key. Doing it intentionally, doing it purposefully with the end result of being inclusive, with the end result of being accessible so that all participants have an equal opportunity to access the information. We also have ASL, American Sign Language, on our stages. Even when we did do virtual, we have a picture in picture so that someone can access the sign language if they need it. We have an accessibility consultant that comes on-site with us that works the desk and provides translators for people if they need it, or sometimes even a guide to walk them through if they need it. So it's a very aggressive approach that ALA has incorporated, and it's been several years that it's been in place. But with the pandemic, we've been able to incorporate more, especially on the virtual front. And the other thing we do is assess it. So at the end of each event, we say, okay, what went well and what didn't, just to make sure that we're always just doing our best and doing more than just the bare minimum, but really, you know, just really making it all encompassing for anyone.
Paige Buck [00:24:13]:
It also sounds like a lot of the accessibility you're creating are for limitations or disabilities that are less visible and less known to the everyday person. So it's easy to accidentally marginalize somebody because of your own ignorance. And so it's really enlightening when you take the time to dig into those things and you just think, like, gosh, if I just picked up 10% of these a year, it would still be a significant change for the event and for the people engaged who I might not even know have those needs.
Earla Jones [00:24:53]:
And we've been very conscious as a nation of EDI, specifically since 2020. I don't want to say a buzzword, but it's definitely been a purposeful goal for organizations and corporations to be equitable, diverse, and inclusive. But we want to make sure that we add that A, so it's equity, diversity, inclusive, and accessible for as much as we can.
Paige Buck [00:25:28]:
Well, and your presentation really resonated with Marianne, and she brought that back to Kennedy events, and now we think about that A. I just interviewed somebody for the podcast earlier today where I mentioned, I was like, we're going to add the A. Let me ask you about accessibility. You're inspiring me to really dig in on this. And when we think about the spatial and physical design of a space for attendees, even just everyday comfort, but recognizing we have people with different physical abilities and sizes and we do not all want to feel like we are sitting in steerage in the airplane while we're learning. No one is well served when you've got this much space and you're fighting over the armrest. And if nobody loves that when they're on an airplane, do you want to feel like that when you're like 30 deep in an aisle or a row? It's painful. No, that's really painful for some people.
Earla Jones [00:26:27]:
That's so funny that you use the airline as an example because that's the term that I use with our team on-site. Our seating needs to be economy plus. Okay, economy plus. Let's think about that. No one likes to sit next to each other. And then also the legroom. Let's make sure we have enough. It's not always the fire marshals' desire on those floor plans, but let's go for economy plus seating if we can.
Paige Buck [00:26:56]:
I love that! Let's go for economy plus seating and a place where people can actually put their bags under their feet in front of them, or under their seat. How about an aisle where you're not going to thwack somebody when you're walking up or down it?
Earla Jones [00:27:06]:
Yes. Having shortened rows. Right. So instead of a row that's 40 people across, let's do ten across and add some aisles and make sure that we have some gaps, like in the movie theater, where if someone is in a wheelchair or in a scooter, there's actually space for them to place their vehicle.
Paige Buck [00:27:32]:
Yeah, vehicle. Sure. I love it because what you just inspired me to think of was that quote from Paul Wellstone, which was, we all do better when we all do better. Because maybe I'm not hindered by, like I don't think of myself as being hindered by the length of that row or the width of that aisle, but I sure am having, even unconsciously, a better experience and am much better suited to be able to learn, engage, connect with somebody next to me, if we're not just shoved in there like Sardines.And then, you know, as a producer and your presenters have that experience where nobody's coming up, nobody's filling in. Well, they're not filling in because that row is 40 seats wide. They want to sit on the end. They want to be able to escape if a session is a yawner. Right?
Earla Jones [00:28:21]:
Right. And using the microphone, that's key. When it's a session and you have a microphone, it's like, oh, no, I don't need the mic. My voice carries. Oh, my gosh. The microphone is not for you. It's for the person who's three tables away that can't hear you.
Paige Buck [00:28:40]:
It's not for your ego and your belief that you studied– this is me. I studied theater. I can project. Yes. And then as soon as you're not projecting, sir, you go right back to speaking as if you're in a small room with the person you're interviewing and you're not doing anyone a service. Yeah. Sounds like you've experienced it all.
Earla Jones [00:29:05]:
The list is long of all the things that we should be mindful of. It should be just second nature, but we definitely want to make sure we're deliberate about it.
Paige Buck [00:29:18]:
To that end. How do you see tech and digital platforms influencing your events and maybe even the direction that you think you might go with them in the next three to five years?
Earla Jones [00:29:29]:
That's definitely a space of constant conversation because we can't move people faster than they're ready to go. And that includes your internal resources as well. And so a lot of the technological enhancements and innovations that are AI, AI, AI. Right. That's everywhere now. You can get certified in AI, but we don't know the limit. There are no limitations at this point.
We were recently discussing what are some practical implications of AI, and we went to a session, and they were showing how, typically, if you want to present at a conference you submit into the call for presentations or the call for speakers or something like that. You write up your rationale and your proposal. I want to speak on X. Well, with AI now, you can just ask the AI, please write a presentation on–
Paige Buck [00:30:44]:
–that would be appealing to this audience. Now refine it so that it's a little more conversational.
Earla Jones [00:30:51]:
Yes! That's a huge implication for adult learning.
Paige Buck [00:30:57]:
Yes.
Earla Jones [00:31:00]:
How do you check for that and then the whole intellectual property piece? Because that's just pulling from what's out there, right? From what's out in the cyberspace, in the world to put this proposal together. I mean, just the implications of that. I mean, how do you write a term paper now when you don't really have to write a term paper? So even in the business space or a marketing plan or anything. In the library space, where access to information is paramount, that's definitely something that we are focused on. And we have a whole, in our upcoming conference, we have a whole track, if you will, all about AI. To help them understand how they can incorporate that within their business. And we are still trying to figure out how to incorporate it in ours.
Paige Buck [00:32:01]:
Yeah. We just sent one member of our team to that AI certification course offered by PCMA and Event Leadership Institute. She's like, I got 100 out of 100 on my exam, and I don't understand anything. And I was like, and isn't that the moment that we're in? She's like, that was the theme of the class. Things are changing so rapidly. Just get this much. Just understand this much so that you have a taste of what is possible and what might be to come.
Earla Jones [00:32:29]:
Right. And it's at this moment in time, because the speed in which technology is changing, it's going to be something else six months from now.
Paige Buck [00:32:38]:
I know. It really does blow the mind. It really does. And it's a lot to parse the good and the bad or the opportunities and the challenges.
Earla Jones [00:32:49]:
And the challenges, yes. Opportunities and challenges.
Paige Buck [00:32:56]:
Yes, indeed. Well, it's been lovely talking with you. I'm very curious to hear, before we wrap up one or two folks that you admire or have gotten to know in the industry that inspire you.
Earla Jones [00:33:09]:
Yes, for sure. I would say one person in particular, Beth Surmont. She's with 360 Live Media. I've worked with her for presentations, we've worked on committees, councils together over the years, and she's just a constant innovator and proponent of collaboration. I just respect her so much. She's a friend but also a professional colleague and watching her career grow over the years and how she is influencing the industry in different ways.
Paige Buck [00:33:55]:
Great, that's great. Thank you so much for sharing about Beth, and I will enjoy looking her up and getting to know her. We will share about her and you and the American Library Association in the show notes as well. In the interest of accessibility, I always say we have readers and listeners and watchers, whether that's an orientation or a need. I'm very much a listener more than I am a watcher. So we want to meet everybody in their preferred learning style.
Earla Jones [00:34:29]:
Yeah, that's how I read books. I listen, I do the audiobook and the physical book. So booksellers always get two or libraries, right? Get two uses out of me because I listen and I read at the same time.
Paige Buck [00:34:42]:
I have a friend who does that and I thought she was nuts. And then I found that is 100% the best way for me to get through nonfiction. Fiction I can do either and I can immerse myself in it in either kind of medium. But the listening and then the reading for business books, that's what gets me through. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Good tip, good tip.
Thanks so much. Earla, it's been a delight talking with you and I hope you have a lovely day.
Earla Jones [00:35:10]:
Thanks, you too.
Paige Buck [00:35:13]:
Thanks for listening to the Kennedy Events podcast. Come back next time and be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes.
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Paige Buck is the co-owner of Kennedy Events, a large-scale event management company based in San Francisco, Los Angeles, and New York City. Our team creates stress-free conferences and events with a positive impact, which allows our clients to resonate with their audience. Kennedy Events specializes in producing flawless product launches, award ceremonies, fundraisers, and multi-day conferences while keeping our eye on retention and engagement goals.
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